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Moncton RCMP Tragedy: A Much Needed Conversation

Jun 15

To begin, the principals of Re-sergeance.net would like to send their condolences to the grieving families; and the wish that their deceased loved ones David Ross, Fabrice Gevaudan, and Douglas Larche will rest in peace. The same group of principals (comprised of retired and presently serving RCMP members) would like to begin a very difficult conversation. These individuals, while mourning the loss of the previously mentioned deceased members, harbour a deep concern for those who continue to wear the uniform (including Darlene Goguen and Eric Dubois). In my communications with them, the  principals strongly emphasized their dissatisfaction with the fact that it took 6 years to convene an inquiry into Mayerthorpe; and now 2 years on since the fatality inquiry, the government and the RCMP have not kept their pledge to properly equip members. Moreover, they are disgusted by the impotence of the Division Staff Relations Representative Program (DSRRP) (whose motto is “Members First”) in the matter. They further find it repugnant, that RCMP members are dying in the street while the Force conducts ongoing consultations with provinces and territories to decide whether patrol-carbines should be provided to every detachment. It is urged that the conversation begin before time and other events take their toll on memory and motivation; and we are all, once again, “blinded by the brand” as displayed at the funerals in Moncton.

In the run-up to, during, and after the funerals, there was much talk of the dangers of emergency service work; specifically policing. Contrary to this common perception policing and firefighting are relative light weights when it comes to those jobs at greatest risk for accident and death (see e.g. Barton, Globe and Mail 14/01/15; or any Provincial Workers Compensation Board website). Of all the dangerous jobs to be had, the logger takes top prize. And despite the danger that can come from falling trees and cutting equipment, the logger is paid very little for his work. If he is fortunate to secure a full-time position the average Canadian logger might earn $26,500 a year (FinancesOnline.com). Those that fill out the rest of the top 10 include: fisheries workers; pilots and flight engineers; roofers; structural iron and steel workers; garbage and recyclable collectors; electrical power line installers and maintainers; truck drivers and mobile sales workers (e.g. taxi drivers and pizza deliverers); farmers, ranchers, agricultural managers; and, construction workers. While some areas policed, and some police tasks, do have an element of risk involved, there are substantial reasons why policing is not among the most dangerous of jobs. When something like a Mayerthorpe or a Moncton occurs it is most often due to one or more serious errors having been committed. It is wrong-headed, naïve, and sensationalist for the Commissioner of the RCMP, to suggest a “monster” was solely to blame, had been “indiscriminatingly shooting at people”, and “…was just beyond belief in a community like Moncton” (cbc.ca/news, Leslie MacKinnon, 14/06/06). A more considered, informed, and intelligent response would have evaluated the incident using one or more of the following areas. (Please don’t consider the areas listed below as exhaustive or the brief comments under each as definitive. The exercise is designed to start the conversation).

  1. Selection

(The comments made under this heading are in no way meant to be critical of those members killed or injured in Moncton. They are meant as food for thought and discussion). There is a difference between hiring processes and selection processes. The former are in place when an individual joins the organization, the latter are in effect when a member of the organization is selected for a specialized unit within the organization.

  • Does the RCMP even have hiring and/or selection processes for all police tasks?
  • If so, where do those processes fall on a continuum that runs from informal (not very rigorous) to formal (very rigorous)?
  • Do the processes actually do the job they are assumed to do?
  • Have the processes ever been empirically validated?
  • Have the processes ever been streamlined to increase the number of successful applicants?
  • Has there been a measurable difference in the quality of applicants?

2. Training

In the same CBC article noted above Mr. Paulson is quoted as naively saying, “…you can’t plan for one of these monsters roving the streets in their community with this amount of firepower…”. Mr. Paulson can be reminded that, police persons may not be able to predict the next challenge to be faced, but they can be prepared for it. To be a contemporarily and well trained law enforcement member is to ensure not only personal readiness, but the response readiness of the entire (patrol) unit.

  • Does RCMP training (including basic, advanced and specialized) undergo periodic content analysis to ensure it is keeping pace with the changing demands of policing?
  • Do RCMP members train for a broad spectrum of situations – are they prepared for anything?
  • Are RCMP members constantly exposed to training situations that require sound decisions within a limited time frame, with limited resources, and sparse information?
  • Are RCMP members trained to use their judgement, decisiveness, and knowledge to respond quickly and appropriately; because the worst decision a “Mountie” could make, in the face of threat, is no decision at all?
  • No one is more qualified to make a tactical decision than the “small-unit” leader in the action – is this recognized in RCMP training?
  • Does RCMP training embrace a concept (e.g. “Commander’s Intent”) that ensures every first responder has a clear understanding of their chain of command’s desired objective, and is given the latitude to choose the best way to accomplish that?
  • During the most routine calls, circumstances can change rapidly. When they do, have RCMP members at the tip of the spear been trained to respond independently and accordingly?

3.  Supervision

  • Are those in RCMP supervisory roles selected because of their aptitudes (or skills) for supervising – or for some other reason (e.g. favouritism or seniority)?
  • Does the supervisor of a particular RCMP section always have experience doing the work of that section?
  • Is there a yearly, (or every two years, or three years) professional development requirement for RCMP supervisors (like a “bomb tech” has to recertify regularly)?
  • Does the RCMP embrace the concept of leadership existing at all levels of the organization?
  • Could any member of a “watch” step in for a fallen (or absent) leader and take decisive action to gain control of a crisis?
  • In the midst of chaos and uncertainty there is no time to wait for orders to be handed down – does even the most junior RCMP member have the confidence, judgement, and authority to make critical decisions under threat?
  • Do RCMP supervisors have the training, judgement, and character that their supervisees can depend on?

4. Individual Discipline

(For more on this area please refer to Calvin Lawrence’s “10 Deadly Errors” below.  Once again the comments made under this area are in no way meant to be critical of the RCMP members killed at Moncton.  They are simply food for thought).

Discipline, in the law enforcement universe, could be viewed as a state of order and obedience resulting from superior training. When discipline is referred to within a military, or paramilitary, context it is not referring to regulations, punishments, or a state of subservience rather it is the exact execution of orders resulting from intelligent and willing obedience rather than habit or fear.

Discipline is necessary to ensure orderly coordinated action, no matter whether the unit in question is large or small. The greatest enemy of discipline is fear. Individuals under threat must be taught to recognize and face fear. If fear is left unchecked it can turn to panic, and an individual, or unit, in panic is made vulnerable. None of us are without fear; however good discipline and high morale will allow persistence in the face of challenge.

Moreover, discipline is nothing more than the individual or group attitude that determines rapid obedience to orders or the initiation of appropriate action in the absence of them. Individual discipline is what would motivate a person to do what is required, in the manner that is required, through nothing more than strong inner conviction. Good discipline is constant and is working whether the individual is being supervised or not. Strong individual discipline is the result of good training and intelligent leadership. In the absence of discipline, neither the individual nor the unit can function.

Here are some questions based upon how a very respected military element develops individual discipline:

  • Does the RCMP promote self-discipline and consistency?
  • Does the RCMP strive for assertive and competent leadership throughout the entire organization?
  • Does the RCMP ensure that all commissioned and non-commissioned officers practice the principles of good leadership?
  • Does each officer and N.C.O. set an example?
  • Is the RCMP alert to conditions conducive to breaches of discipline?
  • Does it eliminate them where possible?
  • Does the RCMP provide guidance and assistance but avoid micromanaging?
  • Does the RCMP set consistent and high performance standards?
  • Does the RCMP praise and reward those deserving promptly and properly?
  • Does the RCMP resort to punitive measures only when necessary to protect the rights of individuals, the government, and the standards of the Force?
  • Does the RCMP encourage innovation and support the rank and file?

5.  Resources

Every review, study, and management report published over the last 15 years has emphasized that the RCMP is in need of transformational reform; and that this will not happen without significant funding increases. The RCMP’s tasks far outstrip its resources, and in an effort to keep up, the members in the trenches are burning out. Approximately five years ago a Senate committee, on national security and defense, concluded that the RCMP needed an additional 5,000 members to undertake the tasks that politicians keep loading on. To say nothing of the budget cutbacks suffered by the RCMP, it has been estimated that attrition appears to be trumping recruitment in this fiscally frugal climate.

  • Could patrol-carbines, hard body armour, or two person cars have made a difference in Moncton?
  • Is it bureaucrats in Ottawa, who know precious little about policing, that are holding the RCMP’s purse strings?
  • Did RCMP members die to save money?
  • Is it time for the RCMP to become a separate (from the government) status employer?
  • Is Mr. Paulson showing leadership on this issue?
  • Could an independent RCMP member’s association (e.g. the Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada) do a better job lobbying for the membership than the DSRRP has?

Well, there you have it. As I noted above, the opinions offered and questions asked are neither authoritative nor definitive. My purpose is to engage you, the general membership, in a discussion. And as an added request, I ask you foreign visitors to the blog (I know you are watching) to weigh in to the discussion. I’m sure the readers of the blog would welcome your opinions, stories, and insights.

Dr. Mike Webster
Registered Psychologist

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30 Comments
  1. Darryl T Davies permalink

    I have read in various media reports that the RCMP officers in Moncton who responded to the call of an individual walking down a street brandishing a firearm were only equipped with pistols and shotguns. I was very shocked and dismayed to read these reports because in 2009 I was contracted by the RCMP to undertake a survey analyzing whether the RCMP should switch from the shotgun to the carbine. At the time I began the research 53 police agencies in Canada including the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP), the Metropolitan Toronto Police and the Calgary police service had already armed their officers with patrol carbines.

    My report was submitted to the RCMP in March 2010 and was based on consultations with firearms specialists in the National Use of Force Program, Community, Contract and Aboriginal Policing at RCMP Headquarters in Ottawa. The report based on a survey questionnaire solicited responses internally from divisional members in the RCMP who were knowledgeable about firearms. A sample of urban suburban and rural police agencies were also sampled in the survey. In total my report was based on over 2500 survey responses.

    The report sought answers to whether the RCMP should 1) Replace the shotgun with the carbine; 2) Keep the shotgun or 3) add the carbine to the RCMP’s existing armament. The Report was titled ‘Aiming For Safety: A Needs Analysis to determine the feasibility of adopting the patrol carbine in the RCMP. My recommendations based on the report’s responses concluded:

    The RCMP should immediately adopt and phase in a national patrol carbine program for all of its uniformed patrol officers regardless of whether they are providing policing services in a rural/urban/suburban environment. The report also stated that the RCMP should:

    Retain the shotgun but reconfigure this firearm so that it fires only non-deadly projectiles such as the beanbag and that Carbines should be reserved only for deadly force situations. The report also recommended that ‘prior to deploying carbines at the patrol officer level the RCMP should plan and execute a comprehensive and effective training program for all of its members. I stated that ‘new policies should be drafted and issued which include guidelines on the storage, maintenance, training and re-qualification requirements for the carbine as well as to where and when the weapon can be deployed.

    I find it appalling that four years later the RCMP has failed to implement these recommendations. Back in March 2011 post media carried a news story titled ‘RCMP looking to replace service shotguns with rifles by Doug Quan. In that article Staff Sgt Scott Warren, chair of the RCMP’s officer safety committee stated “Yesterday is when this gun needed to be on the streets.’ Here we are in 2014 and RCMP officers in this country are still not armed with patrol carbines despite the fact that there are exigent circumstances where they may be required to respond to ‘Mayerthorpe type situations.’
    The RCMP claim they have made some changes but from media reports it appears that the Moncton RCMP officers who responded to a call involving a man with a gun did not have access to assault rifles. My question is ‘Why’ did they not have assault rifles and ‘Why’ has the RCMP not acted upon the recommendations contained in my 2010 report.

    My report was authored during the period when there was a revolt at RCMP headquarters by Senior ranking RCMP officers and when Bob Paulson was promoted to Assistant Commissioner responsible for the National Use of Force Program, Community , Contract and Aboriginal Policing at RCMP headquarters. The terms of my contract required that the final milestone after submitting my report was to meet and review the draft report and then make any changes or revisions that were required. Despite calling my RCMP contacts at RCMP headquarters repeatedly and sending them emails no one returned my calls. I found it extremely odd that the people who had been working with me on a daily if not weekly basis on this project were not returning my calls. I thought it extremely odd because I had been paid in full for the project and although the report had been submitted I indicated that I would make any changes they required at no cost to the RCMP.

    After Three months of not receiving a single email or phone call from my contacts at the RCMP I received a letter from Bob Paulson indicating that he was not satisfied with the report because I relied on American studies and did not include any Canadian research. I wrote back to him indicating that there are no Canadian studies that have undertaken an examination of the patrol carbine and that if he had any issues these should have been dealt with in a face to face meeting to review the report which was the final milestone of the contract. It appears that because my report was not authorized on his watch that he wanted nothing to do with it. I persevered and eventually had a meeting with the Senior Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP Darrill Madill at which Paulson was present. I challenged Paulson to name a single study in Canada that had examined the patrol carbine and he couldn’t. He also admitted to telling his staff not to contact me either by telephone or email which I found bizarre to say the least. I informed Darrill Madill that Paulson’s conduct in this regard was outrageous and told Paulson exactly what I thought of his letter and the repressive actions he had taken against his staff.

    Approximately three months later there was a change in the RCMP Command structure and Rod Knect now the Senior Deputy Commissioner of the RCMP had his executive assistant contact me. The Assistant informed me that he and the Senior Deputy Commissioner had just returned from the inquest into the deaths of the four RCMP officers at Mayerthorpe. He said the SDC asked him to find out if there were any reports at RCMP Headquarters that dealt with the issue of the patrol carbine and they discovered my report attached to Paulson’s letter. After reading my report both he and the SDC thought my report was excellent. They informed me that they would be moving quickly to implement my recommendations to equip officers with the patrol carbine. Unfortunately a few months later the SDC announced that he was leaving the RCMP and taking a position as Chief of the Edmonton Police Service.

    So here we are in 2014 and the RCMP still have not trained or equipped their uniform patrol officers with the patrol carbine. I can understand that making such a transition can take time but my report was provided to the RCMP four years ago. The question remains ..in this day and age why is Canada’s National Police Force still behind the times when it comes to equipping their officers with patrol carbines? Police agencies across Canada took these steps years ago. My report addressed a major flaw in the RCMP’s firearms technology and capability and today we are still not much further ahead in this area. In my opinion Bob Paulson has a lot of questions to answer. For a Commissioner who claims he will deal with bullying and harassment within the RCMP he has no credibility because I saw firsthand how he muzzled the RCMP officers who were working with me on a project that in the end would have helped ensure the safety of Canadians and possibly prevent shooting tragedies like the one in Mayerthorpe and most likely in Moncton. The deaths in Moncton are a tragedy but so is the fact our National Police Force is still one of the few remaining police services in this country that have outdated and ineffective firepower to deal with active shooter situations.

    Darryl T Davies
    Instructor in criminology and criminal justice
    Department of Sociology and Anthropology
    Carleton University

    * The views expressed are those of the author in his personal capacity and do not necessarily represent the position of Carleton University.

    • The Old NCO permalink

      Like the weapons presently used by the RCMP members, Bob Paulson too is well passed his expired date. He should either step down or face the wrath of his recent increased powers of firing a incompetent member, that being himself.

    • Bob permalink

      Response from RCMP

      Supt. Troy Lightfoot issued a statement indicating as of 2012 the RCMP:

      … has distributed 1,330 patrol carbines to divisions across the country since 2012 and plans to provide another 219 by September … almost 5,000 sets of hard body armour have been dispersed, with one in every police vehicle.” (Source: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/after-moncton-shooting-rcmp-rebuff-complaints-of-force-being-ill-equipped-1.1875536).

  2. Bob permalink

    Great insight into the Patrol Carbine issue. Many thanks for bringing this forward!
    There is an understanding in Ottawa that unless a project/issue/innovation has a Champion in RCMP HQ, no doubt with the right rank and clout, they will never take flight and be implemented.
    Pitiful way to run an organization – lack of organizational accountability continues to enhance the risk of frontline members.

  3. Calvin Lawrence permalink

    Quote: “When someone gives his life to save your life, you must not waste it. Let me repeat that: If someone buys your life at the price of his life, you do not dare waste it. Your moral, sacred responsibility is to lead the fullest, richest, best …life you can. Think about this, right now, ahead of time, while you are calm and rational. If you were the one to die and your partner lived, you would want him to have the best life possible. You died to give him that. Now, should your partner or your buddy die in combat, leaving you to drive on, what would he want for you? The same thing. He would want the fullest, richest life you can have. That is what he died to give you, and that is your moral, sacred responsibility. Your mission”.

  4. Buck permalink

    2014-05-27

    “The problem with the RCMP is that on paper it appears they are doing a lot of things, but in reality they are not.”

    Dr. Greg Passey

    Lie, Cheat, Steal, Delay, Deny, Call People Names, Mock & Demean its own members…… This list could go on much longer. This is the Senior echelon of the Force, and they have no intention to listen to anyone who has greater insight and investment in real front line law enforcement. Independent oversight would reveal the marginal and mediocre skills and abilities of the RCMP’s Senior Executive and their country club way of life.

    Buck

  5. Paul Melanson permalink

    once again great article. Now I never believed that I would be defending the RCMP on this blog. But lets talk facts.
    Mayerthorpe was an error in Judgement by RCMP Management, not the young officers who where there. They did not know what they were getting into. But More senior members that knew forgot to mention or believed that these 4 young member knew that the neighbour was a cop hater. When he open fire it was too late , radio reception as always will fail when you need it the most.

    Now Moncton.. l’ve been in this division for most of my career. 18 yrs of 26. We get so many calls about MAN WALKING WITH GUN. Only to get there and it’s a BB gun, Pellet gun, Paint ball gun. black piece of wood made like a gun used by kids. . Broom handle etc. I would get on some weeks 5 calls like this.
    Now you say Complacency… I say NO” Facts. the call came in as Man walking with a gun .. Not MAN SHOOTING or COP HATER WITH GUN. Members once again had NO chance when they arrived at scene.
    I strongly believe that if we had 2 members Patrol the outcome would have been better in our favor. 1 shooter cannot shot 2 targets at the same time. The Second member can take actions, return fire, get the shot gun with SLUGS. 1 ounce of lead will know any human down even with a vest.

    I know this will be an adjustment for members and it would not be cost efficient but the truth of the matter is that SOCIETY has, is changing . More people are losing faith in government and the front line is getting more violent.
    Being and OLD FART I’m accustom to work alone and find it hard when I have a partner because that’s how things were. Now when I was in the OKA Crisis we had 2 man patrols and 2 cars teams at all times. It took us a few weeks and beatings to figure out that this was the only way to work safely we patrolled with our riot gear on, yes inside the car with a Helmet because the ROCKS, the smaill ones were 10 Lbs would come through the roof and windows. I was driving at 80 km and the rock came through the rear window, silent patrol, and cracked the front window… whatever. war stories now.
    Back to our topic. We are well trained, we have 308 rifles in the office and 12 gauge in car. ( always have some slugs with you) and 00 buck. Ceramic plate vest are heavy. I already weight 35 pounds more when I’m fully dressed. You should have a trauma kit in the car for you and your partner not in the truck in the dash glove box.. that’s were your going to be when the party starts.

    I have to agree with Mr Paulson we cannot predict our events we always have to adjust when we get on scene. That why I say 2 members per car is now a NECESSITY in this New Era.

    Having worked NSIS (National Security Information Section) we have many anti government groups in our backward now more than before, 18 yrs ago the American had 1500 groups of ANTI-GOVERNMENT Wako, Oklahoma still groups out there.

    Now Canada is starting to have some also. Freeman of the Land have cross our Borders, 1% are riding our streets… Gentlemen. Our job is to PROTECT and MAKE IT HOME safely.

    Our members are NOT to BLAME, Society is to BLAME. I’m the first to say Most New Brunswicker’s LOVE the POLICE.
    Lets not be PARANOID, but PREPARED.

    Paul the Old Fart.

    • Michael permalink

      Very well said .. no knee jerk reactions based on emotion or to capitalize (politically or other) , 2 men per patrol.

    • Anonymous permalink

      Awful and ridiculous post as far as I am concerned.

  6. I would like to add during the process of blaming others, as was Alberta, why would they keep sending Constables to a rifle fight when Experts should have been sent and why keep sending them when the public called them to let them know they were being ambushed?

    Also the parents had approached the mental health personnel asking for help, he never got, and the RCMP to get involved before five officers were shot and their concerns were not taken seriously.

    I think the Mental Health and the RCMP missed this one and so we have five men/women shot with three killed and a hype by RCMP and Media to cover the mistakes.

    It happened in ALberta the same way, and rifles in the trunk would not have stopped it as some were unarmed. Why would someone leave their bar-b-que to run to a gun fight? Shows the training to be insufficent, I agree.

    The coverages show RCMP matter to Canada and Town Police Officers don’t.

    • Calvin Lawrence permalink

      nce
      TEN DEADLY ERRORS

      1. Sleepy or asleep
      2. Fail to handcuff
      3. Taking a bad position
      4. False assumption
      5. Relaxing too soon
      6. Poor or no search
      7. Failure to recognize danger signals
      8. Tombstone courage
      9. Failure to watch the hands
      10. Apathy

      Rather than jump all over the place; why not start by asking one question. Did the RCMP Members in Moncton and Alberta commit one or more of the above “Ten Deadly Errors? (Remember we are not criticizing the members. We are examining their tactics so that other members will not do the same thing and be injured or killed). Only one of the Ten deadly Errors have to be committed for a member to be killed or injured.

      Now, Please answer the question with a yes or no and elaborate if you wish.
      Armament, training, and communication etc. would follow.

      • Bob permalink

        Hello Calvin – Not sure we have sufficient information to apply any of these to the Moncton matter, nor should we until more complete information is available. Though perhaps there are active members close to the incident that may provide context.

    • Bob permalink

      Hello UMC -“Why would someone leave their bar-b-que to run to a gun fight?” Because when the sh_t hits the proverbial fan most of us would face overwhelming risk to safeguard those we work with. In a sense, like combat on the battlefield, all we have is each other when faced with those insurmountable dangers and risk. It is a testament to character and integrity of the individual.

      It says nothing about training – we do not have all the facts in to make any assessment. Do not throw dirt on a fallen member who responded to a need to help his fellow members.

      If you wish to broach the broader issues, part of the problem with the RCMP tactical training regime is that is largely focused on “re-certification” rather than on enhanced tactical training; there are exceptions however these are largely due to individual efforts (e.g. Use of Force Instructors) and not part of any concerted, focused organizational effort. There is also an absence of dedicated bricks & mortar” facilities (e.g. Pacific Region Training Centre) across Canada to centralize training at the Provincial level for RCMP members.

      Scenario based training utilizing simulations and instructor-based actors has several benefits to enhance training for first response. However there are a number of challenges including cost; members away from their resource-challenged units; leadership at the Divisional and National level etc….

      What we could do better (short-list) from a tactical training perspective:

      1. National leadership on tactical training design and implementation to enhance members tactical skills in first response.

      2. Twice yearly opportunities for enhanced tactical training that would include such things as: armed/barricaded subjects in both open and closed environments; situational awareness exercises; individual and team based response (e.g. Active shooter) etc….

      Many of these things are already being done at PRTC and across the Country. However, as pointed out earlier, one of the largest issues is taking members off the road for training when resource challenged units struggle in their absence. One has to look at all the interconnected parts in arriving at a sustainable solution.

      A few preliminary thoughts.

  7. D. Smith permalink

    The circumstances surrounding the deaths of the three Moncton members was tragic in every sense for the families involved, the R.C.M.P. and the city. There is no question but the perpensity for these kinds of incidents are more and more possible in Canada.

    It is not reasonable however for members to protect themselves with actual plate steel body amour, unless they are deployed in a defensive position knowing that large caliber weapons are involved. Getting the necessary information is rarely obtained in most calls, so the element of the unknown is almost always the case. Knowing that however has not made our police officers better prepared in terms of how these calls are handled in each case and allowing complacency to set in.

    I have seen and read about responders in major US cities who’s officers are always well armed still suffering loss of life within their ranks, so carrying more fire power will not, I think, solve the inherent risk in these responses.

    All police members in Canada need more skills in how they attend to these complaints and a different mind set on approach and how to best to protect themselves at all times from minor complaints to the serious ones.

  8. RJC on the Island permalink

    I am a regular guy , the one question I have is about bulletproof glass..

    Would bulletproof windshield glass have stopped the ammunition?

    • mixer permalink

      No Bulletproof glass would not have stopped it. to stop a high caliber bullet the window would have to be very Thick which would affect the visibility. Remember it was an AMBUSH nobody knew what they were getting in. I take it by Regular Guy you mean non Police. How is a Non Police going to represent Me. No offends but if you’ve never done the job how can you argue for what we need. I’m not anti Union my Dad was President of the Paperworker for 20 yrs.

      • RJC on the Island permalink

        How is a Non Police going to represent “Me”.
        No offends but if you’ve never done the job how can you argue for what :we” need.

        Me and we in your terms doesn’t include us.

        Non Police represent “You” everyday .

        Things will never change without solid Public support.

        Many would agree that it may or already has passed this tipping point.

        The one thing that I hope we agree about is that their was probably at least a couple of aspects that could have mitigated this tragedy.

      • mixer permalink

        How do non police represent me every day. To represent someone you have to have been selected by a vote. Correct me if I’m wrong

      • I know first hand how it feels to be targetted, setup, shot and thrown out like a dirty rag.
        Believe me when I say no one matters in Canada but the RCMP.
        About the bullet proof glass it’s called a military armored vehicle, and they were present.

      • RJC on the Island permalink

        mixer

        How do non police represent me every day. To represent someone you have to have been selected by a vote. Correct me if I’m wrong

        In layman’s terms I would describe it as the power of suggestion and the placebo effect.
        If a person rigidly believes something that will be the perception of that persons view.

        Even if your not wrong that doesn’t make it necessarily right.

        My supposition is that, to greater and lesser degrees this type of stuff happens everyday.

        There was a homeless Native drinking in the park in Winnipeg,

        But that’s when Hall, without thinking, shucked his backpack and dove into the river, swimming out about 15 metres to grab the boy.

        “When he dove in, I thought, ‘Are you friggin’ nuts?” said Spence.

        The boy was apparently unable to swim because of injuries to his back, but he was panicking and getting sucked under by the eddies and the undertow.

        “He started to fight me and climb on me,” said Hall. “He ducked me under a couple of times so I had to slap him in the head a couple of times or he would have drowned both of us. I feel really bad about that but we would have been in Lockport by now if I didn’t. I just said ‘You’re cold, I’m cold. Just lay on your back and kick.’ ”

        Just as Hall was nearing the shore and about to give in to the cold and exhaustion, Spence reached out and dragged the two and pulled them onto shore. By then, paramedics had arrived and took the teenager and Hall to St. Boniface General Hospital.

        Hall, 44, has been an alcoholic living under the Provencher Bridge — “-51 C with the wind chill is my record,”

        Without being too flippant doesn’t this story represent the very best ideals you have ?
        or do you think he should have waited for a vote ?

        At least the very least it represents courage.

        My supposition is that, to greater and lesser degrees this type of stuff happens everyday.

        ———————————————————————————————

        Spouses , family members , friends , .

        I note that The Canadian Federation of Labour is trying to help.get
        representation.

        I could give other examples . Do you agree ?

        I take it that in part that union/association is on your mind.

        In this country Union/Association need all the support.representation they can get.

      • mixer permalink

        You went to university for too long. One thing you seem to forget. As police officer’s we have been to court many times. Even testified a few times and raked over the coals by lawyers and even Judges. So I know Filibustering when I READ it also. HALL was a drunk hard on his luck saw someone in GREATER NEED jumped in and saves the Day. That is not REPRESENTATION that is having COMPASSION for a fellow human being. HE got up and did something to help, the only thing he had to give was his life to save another. We could dance around the floor until Hell FREEZES over with word games. But this IS NOT the Forum nor the Place to talk about Union’s Representation or Association nor about how well I can do this or that. IT’S about helping members and or Employees whatever word to describe those that are Forced to work in FEAR, SHAME, or HARRASSMENT. My last say is Just because I can count that does not make me an Accountant. My Actions show who I am….. A MOUNTIE .

    • Bob permalink

      Hello RJC – Bullet resistant glass is governed by Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL) based on a threat level rating from 1-8 (Link:http://www.security-glazing.com/bullet_tech.html). Technically a police vehicle could be outfitted with bullet distant glass that would stop a 7.62mm/5.56mm round.

      However in most cases this adds considerable weight and cost to a vehicle requiring additional vehicle modifications to deal with the weight. It is just not cost-effective nor practical to armour police vehicles on a widespread scale as would be required.

      Best protection in a modern police vehicle is to position yourself near or behind the engine block. As you might have surmised, windshields/side windows offer little to protection even from smaller rounds such as 9mm/45mm irrespective or an “ambush” situation or not. Modern windshield construction is of a “safety glass” type of construction that allows it to shatter on when hit with sufficient impact (e.g. air bag deployment).

      Hope that helps.

      • RJC on the Island permalink

        I realize that it(bulletproof glass) may only have mitigated the issue.

        It just seemed from the some of the photos as a purely protective
        defensive measure the cost over a large fleet might be worth considering.

        I did a search and note that flat versions of the glass seem much more affordable.

        It just seems to me that an officer in the field should have an immediate point of safety.

        If you don’t mind on the 1 to 8 scale you mention , where did this incident rate
        on the scale?

      • Anonymous permalink

        bullets go through side panels and doors also.

      • RJC on the Island permalink

        Anonymous, I don’t see it as an all or nothing, thing.

        If patrol cruisers were better defensively outfitted (and I do believe that could and should be at
        a reasonable enough cost given mass production) that as a matter of training, responce and tactics at least it might mitigate some of the issue.

        Perhaps the RCMP or the Government or a Police Union or association could should sponsor an engineering prize for this.

        Example $ 5000 to $25,000 dollar prize for Canadian Engineering program to develop cost effective cruiser mitigation not to exceed $2000 to $5000 per vehicle.

        In addition to glass I can think of a couple of other cost effective things that could be done with cruisers that could at least mitigate safety issues.

        As a matter of tactics and response, defense is sometimes as good or better than offense.

        Doing one car retrofitted is costly but 10,000 or more might or should be worth considering.

        It is surprising that given the need and sheer scale that Ford , GM etc hasn’t done this here or in the States.
        I would attribute that issue to inside deals with respect to purchasing on both the buyers and
        the automakers.

    • Aught Buck permalink

      Nowhere in this site is there a requirement to be a cop to chime in. RJC was respectful and stated a concern for Canadian police to have the proper equipment. From what I read he never tried to tell “us” what “we” need. I am a serving Mountie and this forum is largely used by “us” to air our frustrations. I don’t agree with crapping on a concerned citizen reaching out for info on an issue of real concern. Where else should someone go for the straight info concerning the front-line mounties? rcmp-grc.gc.ca? I don’t think so. If more civilians came to this site, it would do us nothing but good, in my opinion.

      RJC, thanks for your condolences to the fallen and your concerns for the rest of us.

  9. mixer permalink

    bullets can go through the : side panels, doors, roof. undercarriage. etc. where do we stop, armoured vehicles are not protecting our Soldiers in Afghanistan. See the link, we increase protection, they increase calibre, Public highway become more dangerous because of the ricochet bullets of high powered rifles.

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